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  • 06-03-14, 07:21 PM

    Question Annual TB Test

    Just had annual TB test, over half the cows had top and bottom lumps .Not one reactor, not one inconclusive. Vet practice had no explanation.Anyone had same experience

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  • 06-03-14, 07:30 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    QuoteOriginally Posted by MrB View Post

    Just had annual TB test, over half the cows had top and bottom lumps .Not one reactor, not one inconclusive. Vet practice had no explanation.Anyone had same experience

    the bovine lump can be any size as long as the avian lump is bigger
    do you get starlings? Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
  • 06-03-14, 07:40 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    Could be mild tb from birds but not a problem and do you vaccinate for johns disease?

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  • 07-03-14, 07:28 AM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    QuoteOriginally Posted by davidroberts30 View Post

    the bovine lump can be any size as long as the avian lump is bigger
    do you get starlings?

    +1
    Which is why in GB we do a 'comparative' intradermal skin test for zTB. We have a very polluted environment with many mycobacteria. Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
  • 07-03-14, 08:19 AM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    Are you in a shooting part of the country? Our vet reckons lots of pheasants about can give rise to a lot of top (avian) lumps.

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  • 07-03-14, 12:17 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    Absolutely no pheasants here, and we don't have a starling problem. Just read our lateral check test today and we have loads of cows rising lumps. The important thing as said is that they rise in tandem. The bottom should not rise by more than the top rises.

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  • 07-03-14, 01:30 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    Thats why we inject the both types of tuberculin, if there was no cross reaction between avian and bovine there would be no need to inject both types and compare the two lumps and there would be no need for the "inconclusive reactor" bracket. Herds with lots of lumps top and bottom are obviously more likely to go down with an IR at some point but what can you do, don't worry about it.

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  • 07-03-14, 02:09 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    QuoteOriginally Posted by MRT View Post

    Thats why we inject the both types of tuberculin, if there was no cross reaction between avian and bovine there would be no need to inject both types and compare the two lumps and there would be no need for the "inconclusive reactor" bracket. Herds with lots of lumps top and bottom are obviously more likely to go down with an IR at some point but what can you do, don't worry about it.

    Does it mean then cows with any size of bottom lump she had a challenge from bovine tb Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
  • 07-03-14, 02:17 PM #9

    Re: Annual TB Test

    QuoteOriginally Posted by MrB View Post

    Does it mean then cows with any size of bottom lump she had a challenge from bovine tb

    Full reaction to avian injection giving full reaction on top.
    Partial reaction to avian giving partial reaction on bottom.
    Some of the antigens of the bovine injection being similar to avian antigens but not all.

    History is a race between education and catastrophe.H. G. Wells.

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  • 07-03-14, 02:23 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    Seems that there is something fundamentally wrong with the tests though as we have had an IR on a heifer imported from Denmark (like all our herd) where there is no bTB and she came straight to us off the Danish farm but rules being rules, she was slaughtered. No lesions found, waiting for the culture test.
    Even the Ministry vet thought that it was more than likely to be a Johne's reaction (or similar).

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  • 07-03-14, 07:52 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    Do any other parts of the UK or ROI have the Draconian rule which states that if a herd test reveals an IC, within three years of having a breakdown, the herd is closed to movements until the IC is cleared? Is it also the case anywhere else that an IC is taken as a reactor if IC again at the six week retest and the herd goes down?
    These two rules together are causing major grief for our farms, particularly when the wildlife reservoir keeps the disease going.

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  • 07-03-14, 09:16 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    QuoteOriginally Posted by DairyFarmer111 View Post

    Do any other parts of the UK or ROI have the Draconian rule which states that if a herd test reveals an IC, within three years of having a breakdown, the herd is closed to movements until the IC is cleared? Is it also the case anywhere else that an IC is taken as a reactor if IC again at the six week retest and the herd goes down?
    These two rules together are causing major grief for our farms, particularly when the wildlife reservoir keeps the disease going.

    Yep, except that you have to test the IR/ and if a x2 IR or a reactor then it has to have left the farm before they will issue you a licence to buy so by the time you take into account bank holidays/ time between test and removal and getting a licence then you are looking at 80 days before you can buy in again, i fhinsh a lot of cattle, buy stores week in/ out all year, just had a whole herd test and 2 IR's in home bred stock, cant buy until they are tested/ poss sent as reactors and as the May bank hols fall means by the time they are tested/ gone down the road and a written licence is received means that i will not be able to buy stores until at least mid May... it will mean i have no income for 3 months later this year and will cost my business 60k+ in lost sale's.... utter nonsense and wont stop the spread of tb one bit between cattle (as that is but nigh impossible other than in lab conditions ) by not buying in stock in the next 80 days...
    NO other business in ANY industry could operate like this and we shouldn't have to either... Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
  • 08-03-14, 11:36 AM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    Does it mean then cows with any size of bottom lump she had a challenge from bovine tb
    No not necessarily, though clearly that is one option

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  • 08-03-14, 11:45 AM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    utter nonsense and wont stop the spread of tb one bit between cattle (as that is but nigh impossible other than in lab conditions )
    I don't agree, the skin test crude as it is/was (from the 1920s) all but eradicated tb in the uk in the last century between 78-86 and that wasn't lab conditions... There is a difference between then and now though, there are a lot more black and whites and I don't mean Holstiens! Without wildlife involvement the skin test and kill approach can work, regardless of its many limitations

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  • 08-03-14, 08:29 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    QuoteOriginally Posted by MRT View Post

    utter nonsense and wont stop the spread of tb one bit between cattle (as that is but nigh impossible other than in lab conditions )
    I don't agree, the skin test crude as it is/was (from the 1920s) all but eradicated tb in the uk in the last century between 78-86 and that wasn't lab conditions... There is a difference between then and now though, there are a lot more black and whites and I don't mean Holstiens! Without wildlife involvement the skin test and kill approach can work, regardless of its many limitations


    Sorry but your wrong!! the reason Tb was all but eradicated in the UK in the late 60s/ 70s etc was because if a farm went down with TB then all the badgers within a 1.5 mile complete circle of the infested farm were culled out 100% so in a short space of time that reduced the TB infection rate from badger to cattle infection to zero the minute the badgers were culled out in that circle...
    Untill you deal with the problem in the wildlife then its a complete and utter waste of time trying to control it in badgers...
    Sad thing is a badger's life is seen as more valuable than a pregnant cow about to give birth...
    You say the skin test and kill approach can work .. so explain then how in this a TB hotspot area how a farm can have some reactors in a few tests... then have two clear tests... turn out the cattle and then when housing them does a 6 month check test and hey presto there is more reactors.... if the skin test was the answer to the problem you wouldn't get the common situation above that happens non stop in Tb hotspot areas such as I farm... Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
  • 09-03-14, 08:40 AM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    QuoteOriginally Posted by gone up the hill View Post

    Yep, except that you have to test the IR/ and if a x2 IR or a reactor then it has to have left the farm before they will issue you a licence to buy so by the time you take into account bank holidays/ time between test and removal and getting a licence then you are looking at 80 days before you can buy in again, i fhinsh a lot of cattle, buy stores week in/ out all year, just had a whole herd test and 2 IR's in home bred stock, cant buy until they are tested/ poss sent as reactors and as the May bank hols fall means by the time they are tested/ gone down the road and a written licence is received means that i will not be able to buy stores until at least mid May... it will mean i have no income for 3 months later this year and will cost my business 60k+ in lost sale's.... utter nonsense and wont stop the spread of tb one bit between cattle (as that is but nigh impossible other than in lab conditions ) by not buying in stock in the next 80 days...
    NO other business in ANY industry could operate like this and we shouldn't have to either...

    I agree whole heartedly. We are awaiting our 2nd 60 day test. Rely on sales of stores for our income. Due to a computer "blip" be were not issued with a licence to sell when we had the first ir's. That was in August, due to all the delays and the c u at Defra, admitted by the AH vet, we have carried 60 + stores through the Winter, probably missing the best of the store prices into the bargain. 2nd test mid April. Buying in food and eating into overdraught!
    As an aside, when ir's had 3 chances of going clear, we had 10 cattle ir twice, then clear on third test. That is years ago now and all have been clear since, some having been slaughtered and clear then too. Explanation? Certainly none from any vet I have asked. Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
  • 09-03-14, 10:30 AM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    [QUOTE=gone up the hill;224555]Sorry but your wrong!! the reason Tb was all but eradicated in the UK in the late 60s/ 70s etc was because if a farm went down with TB then all the badgers within a 1.5 mile complete circle of the infested farm were culled out 100% so in a short space of time that reduced the TB infection rate from badger to cattle infection to zero the minute the badgers were culled out in that circle...
    My understanding is official gassing of badgers did not start untill 1976 and the clear ring policy did not start untill 1982, correct me if I'm wrong.
    The skin test has many faults and weaknesses but there does not appear to be a better alternative at the moment, so we have to make it work. It has worked in the past and still does in many parts of this country , and across the world
    My perspective is clearly different , living in an Edge Area, rather than in a Hot Spot suffering continual reinfection from badgers
    But yes we have to sort the badger problem out in the hot spots, to make any progress.

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  • 09-03-14, 07:09 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    [QUOTE=FarmerP;224590]

    QuoteOriginally Posted by gone up the hill View Post

    Sorry but your wrong!! the reason Tb was all but eradicated in the UK in the late 60s/ 70s etc was because if a farm went down with TB then all the badgers within a 1.5 mile complete circle of the infested farm were culled out 100% so in a short space of time that reduced the TB infection rate from badger to cattle infection to zero the minute the badgers were culled out in that circle...
    My understanding is official gassing of badgers did not start untill 1976

    'Management' of the badger population had always taken place before that. And our (Irish) vet recommended a clear out of a local sett, during the eradication sweeps of the 1950s and 60s when test and slaughter failed to resolve reactors. Roger Muirhead found a badger riddled with TB on a Glos. farm which was also failing to clear with test and slaughter. That was 1972/3. He then visited Cornwall and advised on problems there.
    QuoteOriginally Posted by FarmerP View Post

    .. and the clear ring policy did not start untill 1982, correct me if I'm wrong.

    Clean ring 1982 - 1986, with up to 7km available for trapping.
    Interim Strategy 1987- 1997. Land reduced to 1km from outbreak, and trapping only allowed on land cattle had grazed. Thus if the sett was in a fenced forestry area, arable land or your neighbour's land - forget it. SVS held a general license but had to present a case for approval to the Badger Panel. This met quarterly.
    QuoteOriginally Posted by FarmerP View Post

    The skin test has many faults and weaknesses but there does not appear to be a better alternative at the moment, so we have to make it work. It has worked in the past and still does in many parts of this country , and across the world

    The intradermal skin test, either with a comparison or without, is the primary test used worldwide - with no problems at all, except where a wildlife reservoir is left to fester and re infect.
    Any other test dreamed up appears much more of a blunt instrument and is a secondary test to it under OIE and EU rules.
    QuoteOriginally Posted by FarmerP View Post

    My perspective is clearly different , living in an Edge Area, rather than in a Hot Spot suffering continual reinfection from badgers
    But yes we have to sort the badger problem out in the hot spots, to make any progress.

    Don't worry, the 'Maginot' line is moving at the rate an infected badger can crawl. 10 miles / year appears to be the accepted distance.
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  • 09-03-14, 08:56 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    I think you need to re-read my post - it says Without wildlife involvement
    Clearly the skin test was used to work out which cows and which herds may have tb. Then if all badgers were killed in x radius there was no wildlife involvement. Tb went down so skin test and kill worked. I don't see what you are saying?
    You say the skin test and kill approach can work .. so explain then how in this a TB hotspot area how a farm can have some reactors in a few tests... then have two clear tests... turn out the cattle and then when housing them does a 6 month check test and hey presto there is more reactors.... if the skin test was the answer to the problem you wouldn't get the common situation above that happens non stop in Tb hotspot areas such as I farm...[/QUOTE]

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  • 09-03-14, 09:22 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    Long distance badger travel described in a 'new' paper here:

    It makes the 'Interim strategy's' 1km circle look a bit stoopid, doesn't it?

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  • 09-03-14, 09:55 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    I am sorry if this has been asked before , but why in the trial area , didnt they gas the badgers ??

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  • 10-03-14, 07:55 AM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    QuoteOriginally Posted by Huffy View Post

    I am sorry if this has been asked before , but why in the trial area , didnt they gas the badgers ??

    The cynical among us would say that was because the RBCT did not want to control TB in badgers by killing them. Far too valuable an asset, and job creation tool. And they are on record as saying that. (Not the valuable asset bit, but from the start, culling badgers was not to be an option at the end of the 'trial'.)
    For Selective Underground Euthanasia, any product used on an subterranean group mammal must not maim if a sub lethal dose is delivered. Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
  • 10-03-14, 09:30 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    We had a reactor last week on our 6 month test, could've done without that
    there are few if any stripey vermin about, we have cameras on the look out & no sign of footprints
    95 cows all clear, then did 80 young stock, 11 month old steer that's never been out to grass has 8 top, 20 bottom
    a one off I hope ? Is it likely to be bad luck from testing ? A friend suggested we swap vets.
    our vet is v slow & uses scissors, I am told most vets use clippers ?

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  • 10-03-14, 11:31 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    QuoteOriginally Posted by rogerm View Post

    95 cows all clear, then did 80 young stock, 11 month old steer that's never been out to grass has 8 top, 20 bottom
    a one off I hope ? Is it likely to be bad luck from testing ? A friend suggested we swap vets.
    our vet is v slow & uses scissors, I am told most vets use clippers ?

    8 over 20 is big reaction, nothing borderline there.
    I suppose it could still be a false positive but .....
    Swapping vets will definitely make all your troubles go away. Your hair will even grow back.
    Maybe you should swap friends as well?
    Slow is good, within reason. Would you prefer to have had the same result with a vet who was rushing and potentially cutting corners?
    It's great to get through cattle quickly.
    It's also nice to know you can trust the reaction you see in front of you when you've to turn around and tell the farmer the news.
    Scissors are the default tool over here. Would have thought the noise of clippers would have upset the cattle. Either way, how slow are scissors over clippers if the farmer is helping keep the cattle quiet and steady?

    History is a race between education and catastrophe.H. G. Wells.

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  • 11-03-14, 12:20 AM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    I have only used scissors, West Wales tb black spot, callouses where the scissors go! Wish we had clippers here!

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  • 11-03-14, 05:56 AM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    I don't plan to swap vets !
    however our regular vet takes ages compared to the other 2 vets in the practice, will ask for one of those 2 next time as our time is money. The other 2 have tested for us in previous years
    are vets paid by the animal or the hour for testing ?

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  • 11-03-14, 07:39 AM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    QuoteOriginally Posted by rogerm View Post

    I don't plan to swap vets !
    however our regular vet takes ages compared to the other 2 vets in the practice, will ask for one of those 2 next time as our time is money. The other 2 have tested for us in previous years
    are vets paid by the animal or the hour for testing ?

    Paid by the number of animals on a sliding scale, plus mileage.
    Exposure to bacteria showing on a 6 month test could be from few days before your September 2013 test.
    This animal born February 2013, and had never been outside at all last summer?
    As Greysides said, 8 / 20 is a big reaction.
    If badger intervention is ruled out, what's left?
    Johnnes?
    Vet got his syringes upside down?
    Did you get any avian reactions with the other cattle? Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
  • 11-03-14, 10:08 AM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    QuoteOriginally Posted by matthew View Post

    Paid by the number of animals on a sliding scale, plus mileage.
    Exposure to bacteria showing on a 6 month test could be from few days before your September 2013 test.
    This animal born February 2013, and had never been outside at all last summer?
    As Greysides said, 8 / 20 is a big reaction.
    If badger intervention is ruled out, what's left?
    Johnnes?
    Vet got his syringes upside down?
    Did you get any avian reactions with the other cattle?

    this animal was born April 2013, last year we tested April & had 2 IRs
    In June 1 IR was clear, the other IR again so went as a reactor - NVL & clear on 2 culture tests
    August all clear
    October all clear
    our problem animal this time would have tested ok in Aug & Oct, it's never been outside !
    our 3 reactors in 2012 were all adult cows, never had any before then
    Johnes unlikely, we milk sample & feed calf powder
    syringes upside down - maybe - we had quite a few avian lumps but nothing as big as that
    what about needle hygiene ? Same bent/dirty needle used, they get dropped now & again
    edit
    in young stock, apart from our reactor, the worst was a 4/5 going up to 6/7
    worst cow was a 7/7 going up to 10/9

    Last edited by rogerm; 11-03-14 at 01:59 PM. Reason: Add info

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  • 11-03-14, 02:20 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    QuoteOriginally Posted by rogerm View Post


    what about needle hygiene ? Same bent/dirty needle used, they get dropped now & again

    Injections upside-down can happen but as you are so used to a certain set of actions you realise you've gone wrong as soon as you go to give the second jab. The second syringe isn't where it would normally be. At that stage a note is taken.
    An injection that isn't delivered properly will feel wrong, not enough resistance to the injection, and maybe the tuberculin seen sprayed on the skin. This can happen with moving cattle but, again, the remedy is obvious.
    Given that testing continues in the rain and water running on an animals coat won't be sterile, it causes no obvious problems. Dirt on the needle may well be 'cleaned off' as it penetrates the skin. Obviously no one is going to deliberately inject through dirt or use a needle seen to be dirty.
    If the animal was present on the farm at the time of the IRs it's not entirely impossible there was some contact, direct or indirect, despite the PM and culture tests being negative.

    History is a race between education and catastrophe.H. G. Wells.

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  • 11-03-14, 07:30 PM

    Re: Annual TB Test

    QuoteOriginally Posted by rogerm View Post

    this animal was born April 2013, last year we tested April & had 2 IRs
    In June 1 IR was clear, the other IR again so went as a reactor - NVL & clear on 2 culture tests
    August all clear
    October all clear
    our problem animal this time would have tested ok in Aug & Oct, it's never been outside !
    our 3 reactors in 2012 were all adult cows, never had any before then
    Johnes unlikely, we milk sample & feed calf powder
    syringes upside down - maybe - we had quite a few avian lumps but nothing as big as that
    what about needle hygiene ? Same bent/dirty needle used, they get dropped now & again
    edit
    in young stock, apart from our reactor, the worst was a 4/5 going up to 6/7
    worst cow was a 7/7 going up to 10/9

    I'm afraid your clutching at straw's and are in denial, clear as night follow's day that your cattle have been exposed to the TB Bacteria, no point trying to blame anything and anybody like dirty needles/ your vet etc, if you are not happy with how your vets do the test you can always ask AVHLA to do the test themselves but if you think your vet took a long time carrying out the test then your in for a nasty shock.. sorry to be blunt but you need to accept the reality of your situation and get used to non stop TB testing every 60 days..
    No point worrying about the results, what will be will be...
    Just a thought : do you have a fluke and or a BVD problem in your herd?? Reply With Quote Reply With Quote





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